Representatives at both the state and federal level visited BTPM News on Monday to provide updates and clarity on continued efforts to examine radioactive material on properties in Niagara and Erie Counties.
New York State DEC Commissioner Amanda Lefton said baseline testing helps identify material, but that further access is needed to determine if the material is hazardous and shouldn't be there, or if it's naturally occurring.
There are more than 1,000 access forms that have been signed by property owners and, so far, 726 properties have been screened. Of those 726, Lefton said, 30 properties have been referred to the Environmental Protection Agency for additional sampling and investigation.
The access forms, which are embedded below, are provided by the agencies to property owners to grant permission for screening. Lefton said the forms do not waive away rights of the property owners.
"These access forms are pretty standard language, and in fact, we've changed that language to just make it as easy as possible for private property owners," she said.
EPA Region 2 Administrator Mike Martucci said the process for evaluating each of those 30 properties differs on a case-by-case basis, but often a soil sample will take place and there will always be a conversation between an EPA health physicist and the property owner to discuss the findings.
"What's very different about this contamination versus other contaminated sites that both of our agencies work in and around is that the contamination is not uniform," he said. "What we find on one property could look very different than what we find on another. So from there, the conversation becomes very individualized."
The interview is available, in full, in the media player at the top of this article. A full transcript of the interview, as well, is available below the embedded access forms.
Jay Moran: This morning with us we have from the EPA Region 2 Administrator Mike Martucci. Mike, thanks for joining us.
Mike Martucci: Good morning.
Moran: And also the DEC Commissioner for New York State, Amanda Lefton. Thanks for joining us.
Amanda Lefton: Thanks for having me.
Moran: Of course, here to talk about the Niagara and Erie County radiological assessment. That being stated, I'm not often given the opportunity to speak with such high-level people on such short notice like this, so I'll give start off with a very simple question: Why are you here this morning?
Lefton: We're here to talk about the Niagara and Erie County radiological assessment that the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, New York State Department of Health, and the Environmental Protection Agency all launched together in order for us to understand and really answer the question proactively whether or not there is radiological waste in places that it shouldn't be. So together, our agencies launched an effort to really proactively understand whether or not there was material in places and properties that it shouldn't be, so that we could proactively deliver and seek to address any risks that's out there, and that's why we're here today.
Moran: Mike, you've somewhat mirrored that same sentiment.
Martucci: Yeah, these two agencies have been working together during this entire process. What I would add is that we're also here to talk about what comes next, right? Because there are some properties that have been referred to the EPA to investigate further, and there will undoubtedly be properties in which the this federal agency will be doing cleanup activities, what we call removal actions or remedial activities, where we'll be cleaning radiological waste off of properties. So to share with the community what comes next for those properties that are referred to the agency, and how we return these properties to beneficial use, so that folks can go back to their homes with confidence and know that they're safe.
Moran: How many properties fall under that? You mentioned that some have already been flagged.
Martucci: I think the commissioner can talk a little bit about some of the high level numbers and the progress that we've made over the past months since we've scaled up our activities here, which I think provides some important context in terms of the work we're doing.
Lefton: Sure, and maybe even to take a further step back to say that we know that Western New York has a history of industry, a history of the Manhattan Project, a history of industries that utilize radiological material. That might have been slag production. That might have been other kinds of industry, and so there is a history of some base level understanding.
There were flyovers done by the Department of Energy, other entities, other federal entities, have looked at this, but the EPA was doing some cleanups over the past several years that didn't really make sense to the Environmental Protection Agency, or to us at the Department of Environmental Conservation. We are seeing things that didn't make sense with that historical record. So we launched this to say, boy, we need to make sure we have an understanding of what's out there, so that we can make sure we have a handle on how we can screen for this, as well as whether or not there is material that needs to be cleaned up. So we started a multi-phase project.
We started with aerial surveys where we flew a plane up about 500 feet. And then we had a roadway survey, right? And that roadway survey, which is ongoing, is identifying on the ground. And then we actually have where we are today, where we're also getting access to private properties to screen those properties, and so even just in the last month we've scaled up our efforts significantly, and we've screened over 700 private properties. Of those 726 properties that we have screened, we have been able to identify over 460 of those for no further action.
So it's actually nearly 500 for no further action, and we're still reviewing 220 of those. And what we do when I say review is that we have hundreds of data points on every property that we screen, and we have an expert from the EPA, an expert from the New York State Department of Health, and an expert from the Department of Environmental Conservation that's looking at that individual property to make a recommendation.
So of those 726 properties screened, we have now referred 30 of those properties to the Environmental Protection Agency to do additional sampling, to do additional investigation, to determine what those next steps are, whether it's a cleanup or other kinds of mitigation.
Moran: What is going to happen with these 30 properties?
Martucci: When properties are identified for further investigation, the process looks a little bit different in terms of how we communicate with folks. So the very first thing that happens is outreach is made. All of the information that the commissioner talked about, the map that's provided to families with all of the data points on it, is provided. So each person receives individualized property information about what was found on their property. But importantly, the first conversation involves an EPA health physicist who's here to talk a property owner or resident through what this actually means. Because we collect hundreds of data points per property.
Then, from there, our additional testing could involve a number of things. It could be conducting in-home testing. It could be soil sampling. You've seen probably news reports about us doing digging on properties, where we would bring in an excavator, typically a mini excavator, because sometimes the contamination could be at various depths. So the survey of each property is individual to what we find.
What's very different about this contamination versus other contaminated sites that both of our agencies work in and around is that the contamination is not uniform. What we find on one property could look very different than what we find on another. So from there, the conversation becomes very individualized. Typically, that process will involve soil sampling, here again, we will dig on properties, we'll obtain soils.
The commissioner talked a little bit before about us previously finding radiological material here that we didn't think existed. It's because each bit of radiological material has its own signature, and that is part of our process is to understand specifically what the material we're looking at is, and then from there devising a plan to address it. That involves EPA engineers, it involves contractors who actually do the work. It involves our professionals in our Superfund division.
We're doing this cleanup under federal Superfund authority, so that process is one that we replicate not just here in Western New York, but all around the country when we find material at sites like this. There is a robust process that we follow, but really from that point forward, becomes very individual to the property. What we know is that some of these properties will likely take us a couple weeks to clean up. It might be limited contamination that involves us doing soil removals. Some might involve more intricate cleanups, cleanups that involve excavating larger amounts of soil, doing work adjacent to homes, perhaps under driveways, and in those situations, we begin by doing a property assessment, understanding someone's property. We restore that property, including landscaping and driveways and all sorts of things.
So it really becomes a very individualized process after referral, mainly because there is not consistency in terms of what's characterized on each of these properties,
Moran: I can certainly appreciate that. As you were talking about the cleanup, I'm sure a homeowner saying, "What about us at this time? What about me and my family? What is going to happen while this cleanup is occurring?"
Martucci: What's happening is once we conduct the screening, decisions are being made by the environmental review team that the commissioner spoke about. This is a team that includes a health physicist, professionals from DOH and DEC as well. That team is making a decision whether or not voluntary relocation is being offered.
We have had a few families that we have offered voluntary relocation to based on specific property conditions at their properties. That decision is being made in the screening phase, not after the testing phase, because the testing, as I just explained to you, involves digging on properties. The laboratory component of that testing requires about a month for those samples to go out, be tested, those results to come back. We're not waiting when we find these properties to make those sorts of decisions.
Those decisions are being made at the screening level, and really, those are all just about individual conversations that are happening between our health physicists and the residents about the individual property conditions. Sometimes properties are impacted inside the home. When that's the case, it's very different than, say, a single place in the yard that is impacted by higher radiological activity. So again, each one of these looks really different. And when we get to the referral process, it is really a property by property process as we move forward.
Lefton: Jay, you mentioned something that's really important, which is the people that are impacted by this. That's really why we're here, and that's why we're doing this work because we want to be able to deliver for those people. They didn't put this there. They didn't want this, but we we found it, and we want to make sure that we deliver for those those folks that had no idea that this material was there.
Somebody put that there. Somebody put something there that they should not have. And we're very committed to those families, to those residents, to Western New York, to really identify this and seek to clean it up because we can understand that that's really distressing. That is why we have each of us really surged to our capacity on this.
Governor Hochul has directed that we surge up the amount of folks that are doing this. It is why we've been able to screen over 700 properties just in the last month, because people shouldn't have to wait for answers and to have to live with this uncertainty. And that's what we're really focused on trying to deliver for these communities.
Moran: Let's talk then about the screening process. It's interesting that you've used the numbers of 700 that have been screened. Look, right now we're at about 30 that are have gone to this high level recommendation. What about who is eligible for screenings? How does that work?
Lefton: Sure. Well, we're really trying to follow the data and science.
Moran: But at the same time, we understand that every place is different, though, too, as Mr. Martucci said, right?
Lefton: That's right. But we do have data that shows us where something is, right? So we have aerial data. We have other data from roadway surveys. We're continuing to collect data. And essentially, what we did is with those instruments, we did an evaluation to screen whether or not something is there, and so something that might sort of spiked our instruments.
Then the question is to do an on-the-ground screening. If we have some data that said that there was something that was higher level than we would have expected, then we do a screening to say 'Is this something that should be there or shouldn't?' Because there are some materials. There might be some higher levels in a retaining wall. There might be some higher levels in a granite curbside. There might be higher levels in a boulder that's sitting in a field.
It's really about taking that data of where we've seen some increased activity, and then actually doing a screening to understand: is this radiological waste that's not supposed to be here, or is this something that was naturally occurring or placed there with intention? That is really the process. We're following the data. We have this high-level survey data. If we see an increased spike, then we're going to that property to screen it to determine whether or not it's radiological waste or whether or not something that is is naturally occurring.
Moran: So far, the number of a little over 700 that have been screened — are that's all you've found with the the data points that you have at this stage that needed to be screened, or are there more that need to be screened as well?
Lefton: I'll say that we have over 1,000 access forms signed. We're going to screen every property that we have an access form, and we have over 1,000 access forms. We've screened over 700 properties. We're going to continue to screen until this is done, and we're not going to conclude this process until we've screened all of the properties in front of us, and importantly, until we followed all the data. So 30 is where we are today, but we're going to continue to be at this.
Moran: Who is reaching out with the access forms? Is it the homeowner who has to come to you, or are you, your agency, the DEC, going to the homeowners and saying you are in an area where there could be radiological contamination, for lack of a better term?
Lefton: Great, great question. What we've done with the survey data, is we've identified what we call areas of interest, and that area of interest might have multiple properties within it. So one area might equate to several different properties. Then what we'll do is we send a team out that knocks on those doors of those property owners, or somehow finds a way to contact them if there's not a door, and we ask them to sign an access form, and once we obtain that access form, then we send a team out, coordinating with the property owner to go and survey that property.
Moran: Just to be clear; an environmental lawyer, you probably know the name Christen Civiletto, has raised concerns about these access forms. I tried to go on your DEC website to find one of those forms and couldn't find it. Now this is something that you're giving to the homeowner to give them the option of whether or not they want to have you come onto their property to do this testing.
Lefton: Sure, and we can provide you an access form. It's from DEC and EPA as we're together doing these screenings, and generally that access form is just asking for permission to do a screening for their property.
Moran: So there's no waiving of rights moving forward in terms of any kind of other blame, for lack of a better term.
Lefton: There's no signing your rights away. No, these access forms are pretty standard language, and in fact, we've changed that language to just make it as easy as possible for private property owners.
Moran: It's interesting because, Commissioner Lefton, you did a great job of talking about some of the the legacy of toxic issues in this region. With that, as you were probably both aware to a certain extent, the legacy of governmental distrust. We can go back to the Love Canal. We can go back to the Manhattan Project. We can go lots of places around here in that regard. The opportunity for both of you right now is to assuage those concerns that this is being done with the utmost accountability and transparency.
Martucci: Jay, look, we've heard the same, and certainly understand the concerns of the community and the history that exists here that is front and center in folks' minds and certainly ours as well. A couple things that I would point out that's important is first; this process has been a proactive one. These agencies decided to take up this effort not at a specific call the community. Not because there was a specific issue that was identified, but more so because the EPA was conducting cleanups around here, found signatures of materials that didn't make sense to us. Speaking with our state partners, we made a decision together back in 2023 that we would move forward on a plan to find out what's here.
We set out on a mission to find contamination because we suspected it existed, and our process over the past several years has proved at least to some extent our theory right, and importantly has shown that our process works because we found properties that we are going to have to take up clean up activities at. For us, the first message to folks to understand is that we set out on this mission to protect public health and to protect the environment. That's the very reason we began this process in the first place.
It was not an effort of ignoring what was here. It was not an effort of turning our back to finding some material in some places and saying, 'Oh, we don't want to know more about that,' or 'We don't want to open Pandora's box.' No, it was about understanding exactly what the potential threat to human health and the environment was, and now we find ourselves in the very middle of that process.
The second thing I would call out very importantly: Amanda talked about the governor's commitment. My boss, the administrator of the EPA, is a New Yorker himself, Lee Zeldin, someone who has spent a lot of time here in Western New York, a former state senator, a former congressman from this state, and he is committed, and we are committed as an agency, to seeing this process through. We don't know what that means yet. We don't know quite how many properties we're going to be cleaning up. We don't know the the scope of that. We don't even know the cost. But these two agencies set out on this mission without a concern for cost, without a concern for that process, and solidly a concern for human health and the environment. So I would point to the motivation for this project as being something that's very important to contextualize this because we found, ourselves, motivated as agencies to get to the bottom of what was happening.
We've committed and recommitted ourselves, both as the federal and state government, to cleaning this up. No matter how big the scope is, no matter how intensive those cleanups are, that's our ultimate goal, and we will get there.
Moran: You were talking about the commitment, and that's laudable, but do you feel that the communication on this has not been adequate? Because — I don't think there's any doubt. I'm sure you're both aware, and that's probably why you're sitting here — there's alarms going off in in the Western New York area about this right now. Do you feel like this message needed to be out further and more widespread before we got to this point?
Lefton: Well, I have to say again, this is about people, and this is about people that are feeling this that shouldn't have to be dealing with this, and those are the folks that were really focused on wanting to deliver for. We first launched this effort with aerial surveys and did a really robust communication effort.
Moran: You really didn't find much, right?
Lefton: All the data is is leading us to where we're focusing. But when we first started talking about this, because we first, when we launched this effort, did a pretty robust communications. When we went into additional phases did some robust communication, but I think things got really real when it started actually impacting people. That's why we really wanted to make sure that we surged up our efforts.
We have over 100 people working on this because we're trying to answer these questions as quickly as possible for these residents, and we want to be as communicative as possible. And just so your listeners have it, there are some resources available to them. One is we've held several public information sessions, and in fact, there's another one [Monday] at Lewiston. We've also staffed up a call center as well as an email, so people can call us live, real time, with questions. We've got newsletters. We have a website. We're really trying to make sure that the public is aware of this and has access to this information, and then we're also trying to make sure that we're giving data and information to these property owners as quickly as we can.
As I said, we have a team that's looking at every single property individually to make sure that we have experts looking at every single property that we've screened. We've been able to send out no further action packets to 460 private property owners so far. So we're actually giving people their data, the data points that we're taking from their properties, as well as explanation for them. So we want to make sure that we're being as transparent as we can. We're giving property owners their data, and we're communicating as robustly as possible.
But I will just reflect that there's a lot of uncertainty when it comes to these homeowners. And that's really who we want to deliver for, and we know that we need to move as quickly as we can to answer these questions. That's why we've surged up. That's why we've gotten to over 700 properties because we want to make sure that we're trying to answer these questions as quickly as we can for them.
Moran: I know we only have a few more minutes with you, you guys are very busy today taking taking this message out elsewhere, and I appreciate that. But I want to make sure I understand at least this much. So we've gone through 700, and some have been referred. We've got the 30 that look to have some sort of further action on it. What about where these are located right now? And also, two parts to that is this concept. I think a lot of people have focused more on Niagara County, the town of Niagara, maybe northern Erie County. But now there's this talk about seven southern Southtowns in Erie County that are also falling under this.
What can we know about where we're looking right now, and what we consider are going to be places where we need to have more information, maybe better testing?
Lefton: So I would say that the the phase that we're in right now is we're screening properties. We are in Niagara. We're also in Erie County. We're in both of those places, and we're screening properties to understand whether or not there is material of concern. For the towns in Erie County that we're in, we might find that there's some hazardous material that shouldn't be there, or we might find that there is something naturally occurring. We won't know the answer to that until we screen it, but we let the public know where we're going to be, and we're going to continue to let the public know where we're going to be to answer those quick questions as quickly as we can. The scope of this is Niagara and Erie County.
We're following the data, the data that we have from the aerial survey. We're going to do additional roadway surveys to understand where this is and where this isn't, and we'll continue to communicate about that.
Moran: And, just to again, this is kind of in my mind. Niagara County is north. Northern Erie County is one part of it, but these towns that we heard about last week were were in the southern portion of the county, which made a whole different kind of thing. So you're saying that these communities, people inside these communities, will be well informed about what's going on in their towns with what might be going on at their properties?
Lefton: If we find something for sure, we're going to make sure that we're communicating about that. And I want to be clear that we've already knocked on the doors for the private properties that we're seeking access forms in those towns. That has already been committed. So if folks have not heard from us, that means that we don't have data that's taking us to their property.
Moran: So that's good news.
Martucci: Well, and Jay, I think the most important thing here to remember is we have not been shy about asking for property access in places where we suspect there may be something. And you heard the data that the commissioner ran through of the first 700 that the vast majority of those properties had been cleared.
In situations where either our phase one or our phase two data is telling us to go take a look again, that's what we're doing. The fact that folks are receiving outreach from us asking for property access, the very best thing that they can do is grant us that access, so that we can quickly either rule out their property for no further action, or make a determination if we see something there that represents human-made radiological waste.
This entire process is one that is really rolling out stepwise, but also concurrently, meaning we're conducting phase two evaluations in real time. We're reviewing data in real time. We're doing door knocking in real time, all for the goal that the commissioner articulated, which is to get through this process as fast as we can. So we're not addressing the survey by completing each phase in isolation, but rather running them all concurrently.
Lefton: I just want to reinforce, too, that if we're in a particular community or town, especially speaking to those new towns that we door knocked on in southern Erie County, people should not jump to alarm. It is possible that we will find something naturally occurring. It is possible that it's a retention wall. It is possible that what we saw is supposed to be there.
There is radiological material that exists that we're all exposed to every day. That's not what the concern is. The concern is radiological wastes that someone placed there that shouldn't be there, and that is why we were doing the screening, so we can distinguish between those things, whether or not it's something naturally occurring that should be there, or something that is radiological waste that was placed there. And that's what we want to make sure that we're on top of.
Moran: Final question: Have all the doors been knocked upon? Everything that's gone through these levels of of exterior testing, for lack of a better term, have you identified each home so far and approached each homeowner?
Lefton: I would say, Jay, that for the data that we have today, we have had teams out knocking on doors in all the areas of interest, but we are being really deliberate and conservative in how we're approaching this. So, if we screen a property and see that there's material on it, we might knock on those adjacent property owner doors and ask them. Right? This is something that we're going to continue to follow the science and the data to make sure that we're as protective as we can be.
Moran: Well, I appreciate your time, EPA Region 2 Administrator Mike Martucci, DEC Commissioner Amanda Lefton, and thanks for being with us on Buffalo Toronto Public Media.
Lefton: Thanks for having us, Jay.